Hello Gentlemen and Ladies,

I hope you don't mind me using English for I type much faster and get my point across more clear.  I'm not sure this is the right place to post such topic.  If this is not the proper place, please remove to a more proper place.

I had a great discussion about this topic with our fellow forum friend Joe_Lo 兄 and Louisuni 兄.  I want to state that my opinion is only my opinion.  If you have a different point of view, it is perfectly fine.  For this is only model and like I said before, 砌模型, 開心最重要!  Everything else is not important!

Many modelers build WW2 or even modern tanks with the muzzle blackened.  However, this is a rare case.  By the time in the 1930's, the technology of ballistic artillery have much improve since the 1800's cannon.  Further more, most of these tanks were destroyed or maintanced before the tank  get to a very "dirty" or "rusty" condition.  Personally I have read many autobiographies from WW2 tank crew (if you are interested, I can recommand several very good books to you).  Most of these subjects stated that they keep their machine on top condition for the pride more than punishment.  Therefore, powder residue is uncommon to be seen on the barrel end.

I hope you are not falling asleep yet!

I understand asthetically it might be more appealing to blacken the muzzle, but if you are going for realism, this might not be the case.

Here are some photos I got from Panzerworld which support such idea.  Of course, we never been there during that time, but the photos can help us understand more about modeling WW2 subjects.

Here are the photo study on blackened muzzle.

One argument which is seen popping up every now and again on modelling websites, is wheter tanks muzzles should be blackened from fireing. The below photographs have been chosen because they display muzzles clearly, and as can be seen, extensive blackning is very rare.


This destroyed Panzerjäger I shows no sign of blackening


The lack of blackening here is not surprising, considering it appears to be at some kind of formal event, but I still included it (mainly to at least reind, that if modelling such scenes, blackening is a big no-no)


In action photograph from Russia, showing no blackening on neither the main gun, nor the MG 34


In action photograph from Amsterdam, with no blackening visible


Although this is a regimental photograph, and most likely staged, the muzzle is not only void of blackening, but also seems brighter than the rest of the barrel. This might be due to lightning conditions, though


While the muzzle brake of this destroyed Sturmgeschütz is blackened is difficult to determine. It appears a bit darker than the rest of the barrel, though


Pz.Kpfw.IV in Italy with no blackening visible (the barrel even appears shiney, compared to the rest of the tank)


No blackening is visible on the muzzle brake of this Nashorn


This is the only denifitive blackening I've seen, but even this is not nearly as dark as the blackening displayed on many models


Wheter this Nashow has a blackened muzzle brake, or it is simply a bare spot in the whitewash, can't be said with any certainty, but I included it for the sake of argument


Wheter this is in the field or not is impossible to say, but the lack of blackening is clear


This destroyed Panther in France has no signs of blackening


Another Panther in France, again without blackening


This Tiger wreck in Africa shows no sign of blackening either (and although it's doubtful that the crew would have taken the time to paint the kill rings on the Tiger after it had been destroyed, it is reasonble to assume it has seen some action)



This destroyed Tiger in France has no blackening, however it was destroyed from behind, so it's possible it didn't have a chance fire


This Jagdtiger has no blackening either


Even on this 15 cm Nebelwerfer-Zehnling from Großdeutschland in Russia, there is no blackening


Another photograph of a 15 cm Nebelwerfer-Zehnling, where the edges of the muzzles are not only free from blackening, but where they also seem to have had the paint wither worn or burned off, showing the bare metal below


No blackening is visible on this 2 cm Flak either


This muzzle is almost shining, with no signs of blackening


This destroyed French Hotchkiss tank shows no blackening


Although the barrel of this Russian reconnaissance vehicle is clearly blackened, this might very well have been caused by the fire and not during combat

There are more information about topic.  If you are interested in more information, we can discuss in this thread.

I hope this helps

QF

[ Last edited by Quietfart on 2006-10-1 at 12:40 AM ]

Thanks for yoursharing, this open my eye to weathering consideration.

P.S. I am a novice.

感謝 QF 兄資料提供, 我想絶大部份 AFV 模型製作者都以為炮口應該是煙黑色的 (被炮友燻黑所致), 尤其是經歷過戰火洗禮的坦克. 原來我們一直以為是理所然的事情便沒有嘗試去探求它的真確性, 而大部份人亦會跟隨着錯誤的路去走. 所以凡事都會追求到底真的沒幾人呢!

Joe_Lo兄,

I made the same mistake before.  Even now I still think blacken muzzle is very asthetically pleasing.

After few years of modeling I would admire other modelers' work and use their ideas as source of inspiration.  However, I decide to use only photographs and literature as my references.  After such practice opened my eyes!     I never realized I made so many mistakes!

QF

多謝 Quietfart 兄,
我現在簡直如夢初醒~~~

再次感謝 qf 兄的提供.   

炮口煙薰的問題看來會變成一個取捨的問題.  正如樓主所說, 很多資深的 afv 製作人都一直將炮口做成煙薰的效果. 久已久之, 到現在如果看到一架 afv 模型 無有煙薰, 可能感覺會變得怪怪, 甚至被人以為是商作成品.

當然, 樓主提供亦是非常有用的資料, 想不到自己成日睇呢 d 照片, 做模型時,竟然無留意呢個效果, 而盲目追從. 真是汗顏

今次做這架三突, 是一個好機會去試試新的作法, 看看效果了.

I feel the same too!  When I first decide to change it was very uncomfortable.

Now if you see some of the famous AFV modeler, you will notice most of them don't blacken the muzzles.



QF

近日為三突同 4 Ausf C. 搵資料, 有個網站有好多相睇, 多數係將一 d 書藉既相片 cap 左出黎. 藉此分享一下. 希望大家有興趣.  

battle of krusk : http://aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/books/kursk/ ( 東部戰線既相, 好多蘇聯坦克既相 )

Panzertruppen : http://aeronautics.ru/archive/ww ... ruppen/web_gallery/  ( 彩圖, 製作緊三號戰車既一定要睇睇 )

Panzertruppen : http://aeronautics.ru/archive/ww ... /bw/web_gallery_bw/  ( 都係 Panzerturppen, 不過係黑白相 )

http://aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/books/atlas_of_wwii/

germany secret weapon : http://aeronautics.ru/archive/ww ... ns_wwii/page_01.htm  ( 夠另類 )

呢個 site 仲有好相片供參考, 而且可以就咁 directory listing. 有心機既, 你可能會發現....

Bro QF,

This is quite interesting,

I would agree with you that there would be rare cases of extensive darkening color on the gun/cannon muzzle unlike most of the modelers did on their piece, In most cases, I guess it would be mostly faint black colored muzzle. But why are the muzzles on your photos looks very clean? pls read on...

Adding a few observation on your photos, the Muzzle appears to be clean would have caused by many factor, specifically the ammunitions that was used, including the gunpowder and the primiers.

The primary active ingredient on the primers contains potassium chlorate, in layman's term, this is salt, upon firing the weapon an amount of salt residue leaves on the bore, barrel, muzzle, etc. and of course salt would cause any steel to be rust like billy ho.
and if left alone, this residues would have cause corrosion, resulting in rounds loading problem and in serious cases, it delfect the projectile, making the gun inaccurate.
so soldiers are taught to clean the whole bore and muzzle as a standard procedure, in order to keep their weapon in top shape.

note that I've read those residue are so tough to clean sometimes G.I. cleaning solvent fails, experienced soldiers used to clean the bore(內膛), barrel, muzzle, etc with Boiled water, which it effectively dissolves the residue.

So I guess this should support your findings that the muzzle shoudn't look so dark...

P.S. sorry if you find any typo....I typed it in rush manner....

My fellow Zeon friend,

Believe me, I have look very very hard on this subject.  This is a very popular discussion among armor modelers.  Other popular discussions include chipping and rust, which we can discuss about this another time.

You are right about the clean muzzles on my models.  There are several factors on the decisions that determines what I weather and when I weather...

When I build a historical model (sometimes even Zakus    ), I research the topic and study the photos and read as much as I can about the subject.  I also search the internet to see what fellow modelers have done in the past for inspiration.  If there are things I 'm not sure of, I will ask. Of course I have never been there in 1940s so I do the best I can to gather all my informations and build a tank as accurate as possible.


For example.  I decided to keep my Panther II clean is because this tank was a prototype which it was never mass produced.  So the Panther II was never in combat.  I don't like to weather too much when i'm building a display model.  If I build a diorama, I will weather the tank accordingly.


If you are interest about German soldiers and their weapons, here is a very very good book with photos.  This guy survived the Eastern front and published his diary. The book talks about the daily life of a German soldier and his duties.  It was one of my favortie autobiograhy.

On one accuont he (Gottlob Herbert Bidermann) said " we took pride in our equipment (Pak 38), cleaning and maintaning is not only our duty but part of our daily routine.  We knew every scratch and mark on the gun."

http://www.amazon.com/Deadly-Com ... udies/dp/0700611223

Having saying all that, it really comes down to personal preference.  To this day I still think blackened muzzle looks much better than the clean one.  In 小弟's humble opinion, balance between asthetic and realism is the key, most of all...砌模型, 開心最重要!

Sorry for the long post.  If anyone have suggestion or opinion please discuss.

Sieg Zeon!

QF

of course I think its quite the case (I mean the clean muzzle) thats why I stated my observations compare with your opinions...hehe
but I think dark muzzle or not would depends on how the modeler wish to depict his work, right?

Well... I'm not a hardcore War fanatic like my brother (he does collects WWII stuffs )  But I like Zeon designs very much, they look like Germans and Samurai mixture.... but most importantly they look more close to real combat machine, specially the Zaku...

Sieg Zeon! I like that... der Herr QF

I totally agree!  I like the blacken muzzles , but the angel of accuracy prevent me from doing it!

QF